Epic Ravenloft

[High Priest Mikhal]

In the Journals in the Fan Fiction section the protag is epic-level, but doesn't use his powers even half as often as he could. Why? Because as MOE said, magic (and psionics, and any other power) is corrupt (and yes, rarer in Ravenloft, which is what Low Magic means IMO). To paraphrase, "the more you know, the more you realize you don't know." Alexander Dreamfire knows quite a bit, but that's not reassuring. In fact it's the exact opposite and leaves him scared out of his mind to use any but the most basic of his abilities for fear of drawing the attention of the darklords, or worse still the Dark Powers. Like Zettaijin said, it's very much like comic book heroes that try to live among the "normal" people. It just makes things easier not to flaunt his powers unless he absolutely has to, otherwise it makes others edgy and can lead to all sorts of problems. Of course that approach can (and does, repeatedly) lead to problems that could have been avoided had he used his full powers. It's a fine line to walk and one that he falls off of often enough that he sometimes considers power to be a curse. What good is having power but not being able to use it without alienating others, and then finding himself in trouble when he doesn't use it? That's a key theme to both the Lost and Gothic Journals. Is power a boon or a bane? And what costs does power entail? Especially if the entire world is against you?

In getting into (new) WOD, especially Mage: The Awakening, I've found a plethora of new ideas of why power can be a bad thing. As mages grow in power (Gnosis) they become more capable all around to the point of superhuman feats without magic; with magic there's almost no limit. But the costs are so numerous and dangerous that they need that extra power just to survive the bigger, meaner, stronger things that lurk in the universe--especially things that no mage has ever encountered before and don't fit into their neat and tidy cosmology--if they flaunt that power. In short, their great power just makes them more vulnerable. Not to mention the temptations that could lead to a loss of Wisdom (a code that mages must apply in addition to mortal Morality), which in turn causes their power to run amok even as their sanity frays.

Those same ideas, that power comes with commensurate costs to use and corruption comes more swiftly, is what makes epic-level play in Ravenloft such an interesting idea. Do the PCs reign themselves in and use only the necessary power, thus ensuring the best (which doesn't mean good) outcome? Or do they go in full bore and likely make things worse? Power, especially in Ravenloft, never entails knowing the outcome of one's actions. The Vistani know, but they also know that precognition strips one of the comforting illusion of hope when the future is all laid out, and is truly a curse rather than a power. That they cannot see themselves in the future is really a mercy.

[Jack the Reaper]

I disagree, a high level magic user is no longer a mere human. Having reality altering powers not only completely changes your perception of the world but your physical self as well; you are no longer human, but almost a God.

What does pride, greed, lust, hate and love mean to someone who can cast spells with which he can decimate armies and raise the dead? What does beauty mean to someone who can see on a sub-atomic level at will? What is friendship and kinship to someone who can control emotions with a mere thought? You don't need to command armies, you ARE an army!

I disagree in return. Take Raistlin for example; I don't know what his formal level was, but the guy took all of Krynn's gods in combat, and became the most powerful god of his world, so I suppose you can call him quite "epic". But did he became any less human because of that? Did all of his human weakness not haunt him all along the way, and turned to be both his downfall- and eventual salvation? Was he free of fear, pride, passion, and the need to be appreciated? Raistlin is IMO an excellent example of a super-powerful mage, than under all his magical power, remained very much humane. Playing him in RL could have been very interesting.

Anther example can be taken from WoD games, where you can play ancient vampires with incredible power, and still be very much concerned about preserving their humanity, morality etc. Not to mention the other powerful enemies you have to cope with.

And as others have stated, never have the saying "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" been truer than in RL. You may destroy whole armies in a gesture, go for it, why not; but don't be surprised if you'll find yourself very quickly becoming the image of your worst enemy.

As a note for Paladyn - of course a party of epic PCs has nothing to fear from many of the DLs; but the point is, that in an epic campaign, many DLs can be made much more powerful than they are now. So the balance can be kept.

[brass]

I think the question is can you see more than 3 sessions with a epic level group in Ravenloft. What is there to do or interact with?

[Jack the Reaper]

I think the question is can you see more than 3 sessions with a epic level group in Ravenloft. What is there to do or interact with?

You can ask it about any setting... Assuming that all of RL, including the darklords, becomes more epic, I think that Darkon alone - with a 36th level Azalin, his 70 liches servants and his army of undead - will be enough to keep the hands of any party busy for several seasons.

[brass]

Hmmm I can see Azalin, Strahd and maybe the Shadow Rift being the only real items to explore in a epic game. But even then I wonder if they're just not playing Epic D&D with eyeliner.

[Sareau]

Any of the darklords, properly played, can confront an epic character with relative impunity. As far as teleporting across the domain, well, as long as the borders are open at the moment, sure.

If you are doing epic level characters-and in my campaigns, most of us retired long before that point or shortly after-they get to play in bigger pools-Cavitius, Bluetspur, etc.-where the darklord is more of a threat to the players personally, or you can have the darklord go after loved ones and such to blackmail the players-I don't care what your level is, having to wipe out an entire domain to get your way is a means of trapping yourself in Ravenloft, not escaping.

Of course, there is a certain charm to having such iron-fisted epic characters serving as cautionary tales for an entire domain-"Don't be a bully or it could be you in the High Tower, living in a phantasy of the past..."

[MadStepDad]

...paging Deepshadow....

DS ran an experimental epic 3.5 campaign: see this thread for a discussion of it and more links.

Better yet, check THIS link:

http://madstepdad.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=shadow

The actual game. Heh heh, still pimpin for hits...

peace,

MSD

[High Priest Mikhal]

I think the question is can you see more than 3 sessions with a epic level group in Ravenloft. What is there to do or interact with?

You can ask it about any setting... Assuming that all of RL, including the darklords, becomes more epic, I think that Darkon alone - with a 36th level Azalin, his 70 liches servants and his army of undead - will be enough to keep the hands of any party busy for several seasons.

That's going overboard IMO, but if it works, go ahead. Messing around with DLs can put players on their toes, but it can also seem like the DM is cheating them. I prefer to use what's already established, like advanced monsters and the minions of DLs that can soften the players up before they get to them. If they want to fight Strahd, let them...after hordes of vampires and spawn have had their go and likely left them drained of resources and even levels, and that's not including Strahd's regular army or his contingency spell. This can be applied to other darklords using their minions, any animals or monsters they control, their granted powers, and sometimes the nature of land itself if it's particularly hostile and/or the DL in question can control it to some degree. Then there are closed domain borders. Unless a party member has a reality wrinkle, or they're all immune to the closed border effects by fiat of their creature type, the lot of them aren't going to be able to get out if (ideally, when) things go bad.

Even if they succeed in taking down a DL, that doesn't always mean they've destroyed them or that someone/thing else won't take their place. My favorite solution is to give them other things to deal with: advanced monsters, Mist creatures that form as powerful creatures, oddities that can't be solved by combat, magic, or high skill checks alone, and other things that necessitate playing their characters as fully-fleshed out beings. RP in RPG stands for role-play, after all, not roll-play.

[Lovecraftforever]

Given the WOW style of 4ed I believe the board game may be the only future plans for any new official Ravenloft products.

Dragonlance was once the breadwinner for crying out loud and they abandoned it. What hope does Ravenloft, the red headed step child of D&D, have for new releases?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Just another spin on the issue: how epic can a Ravenloft campaign be, before it starts to cheapen the classic-horror monsters that are such a key part of the setting? When vampires stop being scary because they're vampires, and have to also be 30th level blackguards to pose a challenge, is it really still a vampire adventure? When the 35th level evil werewolf ranger ambushes a hero, will the villain's lycanthropy have any significance in determining the encounter's outcome, or would it be just as effective with a sword and a few protective spells?

Moreover, if Ravenloft had millions of inhabitants, would saving any single victim really feel the same? Would a PC who ventures into the Nightmare Realm to fend off the dreamspawn plaguing a little kid be praised for this feat of compassion, or chewed out for wasting time on a single child's bad dreams, when Drakov is massacring thousands of innocents every day in the domain next door?

[DocBeard]

There will always be people who do think that there is a set value to human life and that worth can be judged through simple accounting. If your players feel accomplished, than they accomplished something. Larger pools of hit points and flashier powers do not change this, and frankly if a DM feels the need to kick his players at their moment of triumph, well, it is not how I would run a table.

Same with the monsters: a vampire or werewolf's level doesn't matter. Its a bunch of numbers. If you want to tell a good vampire or werewolf story, bone up on what makes vampires and werewolves scary and focus on integrating those elements into the narrative. Players do not suddenly become not afraid of things because they are level 20, and chances are they were just as saucy at level 1 anyway.

And earlier-Azalin is a powerful lich served by a whole religion and a secret police full of monsters. While '70 liches' is, frankly, unoriginal, I don't see how any amount of resources this guy possesses is dishonest. If your players cry because they can't look up the arch-villain's stats before fighting him you need to get control of your game table. The resources of the Darklords are left vague for a reason.

[Isabella]

Moreover, if Ravenloft had millions of inhabitants, would saving any single victim really feel the same? Would a PC who ventures into the Nightmare Realm to fend off the dreamspawn plaguing a little kid be praised for this feat of compassion, or chewed out for wasting time on a single child's bad dreams, when Drakov is massacring thousands of innocents every day in the domain next door?

One could argue the same thing about a smaller Ravenloft, or for that matter, Real Life. What does one person matter in the grand scheme of things?

[Sareau]

Moreover, if Ravenloft had millions of inhabitants, would saving any single victim really feel the same? Would a PC who ventures into the Nightmare Realm to fend off the dreamspawn plaguing a little kid be praised for this feat of compassion, or chewed out for wasting time on a single child's bad dreams, when Drakov is massacring thousands of innocents every day in the domain next door?

One could argue the same thing about a smaller Ravenloft, or for that matter, Real Life. What does one person matter in the grand scheme of things?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in the US, English beat out German as the national language by one vote-so one man can matter.

In the war for humanity, the war is fought one soul at a time-so every victory matters.

[HuManBing]

Moreover, if Ravenloft had millions of inhabitants, would saving any single victim really feel the same? Would a PC [...be...] chewed out for wasting time on a single child's bad dreams, when Drakov is massacring thousands of innocents every day in the domain next door?

Interesting observation, but do you really want to be looking at every individualized act of good against the context of the anonymous sprawl of all humanity? Is that really fair?

As an example, our planet has between six and seven billion people on it. We also have AIDS, cancer, hunger, and grinding poverty. But we still find time to respect and honor those who stop to help others in an individualized way (e.g. firefighters saving a family and their pets from a burning house) even if they don't stumble across a cure for AIDS along the way.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Moreover, if Ravenloft had millions of inhabitants, would saving any single victim really feel the same? Would a PC who ventures into the Nightmare Realm to fend off the dreamspawn plaguing a little kid be praised for this feat of compassion, or chewed out for wasting time on a single child's bad dreams, when Drakov is massacring thousands of innocents every day in the domain next door?

I don't think it follows, really. A low-level party goes after the dreamspawn, and that is fine; the epic-level party goes after the whole freakin' Nightmare Court, and that is also fine. The low-level party saves one elven family from enslavement; the epic-level party clubs together with Gondegal to launch a mass prison breakout from the Central Prison and a simultaneous assault on the Radiant Tower.

The scale is different, and it's usually less personal/intimate, but I don't think that's a weakness--just a difference.