Queer Representation in Ravenloft

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

It doesn't take much reading between the lines to see that Baron Metus is canonically bi. He had a female vistani lover in his backstory named Andrianna, and also took Erasmus Van Richten as a vampire Groom/companion. If you want to be painfully heteronormative, you could say that he only wanted to be "just friends forever" with Erasmus. But the implication of making someone a vampire companion rather than a normal vampire is that you mean to be romantically linked.

Yeah, but Metus is, like, a pedophile. Yeeks. Those aren't welcome around here.

(I do like the precedent it sets for same-sex vampire companions being magically possible.)

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

-- How much of this background lore would players in a campaign actually get to experience, though?

-- Genuinely asking: How would you do this?

Honestly I have no idea.
I think about 90% of the worldbuilding you can make up about a place won't matter at all to your PCs.
But... When you create a homebrew world for your campaign, you should focus on the 10% that will actually come into play, cause you're making it all by yourself and if you waste time detailing out the dragonborn cuisine you won't have energy to write and run the actual session.
When you have a shared world, everyone can make up another part of the lore, so you can get to the really irrelevant parts too if you feel like it.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

With the Darklords, however, how does LGBTQ-coding them in a way that is relevant to the actual game not invite discrimination and bigotry? - Say, Harkon Lucas being bisexual, or Hazlik's closeted guilt: How do you present that in a way that is not inherently negative?

Like, these characters are not supposed to be "morally grey". They have committed "acts of ultimate darkness". (I think, in 5e as well.) Don't we create decidedly anti-LGBTQ and very stereotypical "fiends" the moment we connect their sexual orientation to their negative acts, or acts against the PCs?

Say, "ravenous Harkon Lucas, not-so-discreet bisexual" - sure sounds funky. But if we really buy into that premise, don't we end up equating homosexuality to cannibalism, like Dan Simmons infamously does in "The Terror"? Or, "the evil noble that is into pretty young men" - that's just the plot to Orson Scott Card's "Hamlet's Father" if the DM is not careful.

-- Genuinely asking: How would you do this?

Honestly, that was my problem with Hazlik when I first read his Mistipedia article. It just sounds so bad. I realised most fans think otherwise, however.

I think the way is to clarify that this is a queer person that happens to also be a bad one, rather then a bad person because they're queer.

That's why I love Viktra Mordenheim - her love for Elise is pure and sweet, the problem is that she was willing to murder hundreds of innocent people to save her.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Generally, if I have a queer darklord I would have also a queer lightlord so to highlight that there is bad and good in any group.

Yep.
Like, even in classic Ravenloft with no lightlords around, you can still through in heroic queer NPCs Alanik Ray for that balance.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I also want to mention that, reading Dracula as a teen, I was excited to find hints of the Count being attracted to Jonathan.
I didn't think it was romantic or good representation. I knew this was demonization (Or, considering what I know about Bram Stoker, personalization of his insecurities). But it was also recognition. Evidence that people like me existed even back in the 19th century. Seeing the topic mentioned, even in a negative context, is sometimes better than growing up in a bauble where everyone pretends it doesn't exist.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

That said, we do need positive queer NPCs just as much as we need queer darklords.

(When we think about it, we need more positive NPCs in RL in general. I understand the balance consideration of ensuring our PCs really are the only ones who can handle the monster of the week, as well as this being a horror setting people come to for dark content - But we focus so much on the villains, that sometimes it gets despairing.)

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

So...
How about we do a Pride Month netbook?
Featuring fanfiction, new NPCs, maybe related items...
Is this something you'll be interested in reading? Interested in contributing to?
(We'll have to work quickly if we want it released by June)

[Le Noir Faineant]

Generally, if I have a queer darklord I would have also a queer lightlord so to highlight that there is bad and good in any group.

My problem with this is, unless the group has a pre-existing in-game context with queer characters, this has a rather realistic chance to later make their trip (?) into Ravenloft "that campaign in that place that was all misty, and where everyone was gay".

I can see where this might work in-canon, and rather easily: https://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Nidala

The fundamental question being, of course, whether telling a story centered on closeted guilt isn't simply just too big for a D&D game. (As opposed to, ugh, "get the magic crown" or "hunt the imaginary dragon", for example.) Not because queer, or generally, romantic themes were too limited, but because this boils down to stuff that you by and large have to declare to players, but that they can only barely interact with.

How about we do a Pride Month netbook?

Here's an idea for you that might be fun for you to entertain: Especially for groups returning to Ravenloft, perhaps after a first campaign against Strahd - how would it upset dynamics if Tatyana was, the next time, reincarnated as a dude?

[Mistmaster]

Generally, if I have a queer darklord I would have also a queer lightlord so to highlight that there is bad and good in any group.

My problem with this is, unless the group has a pre-existing in-game context with queer characters, this has a rather realistic chance to later make their trip (?) into Ravenloft "that campaign in that place that was all misty, and where everyone was gay".

I can see where this might work in-canon, and rather easily: https://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Nidala

The fundamental question being, of course, whether telling a story centered on closeted guilt isn't simply just too big for a D&D game. (As opposed to, ugh, "get the magic crown" or "hunt the imaginary dragon", for example.) Not because queer, or generally, romantic themes were too limited, but because this boils down to stuff that you by and large have to declare to players, but that they can only barely interact with.

I usually have enough characters in a domain and enough things for players to do that the risk is not so substantially. Yet another reason for making everything bigger.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Generally, if I have a queer darklord I would have also a queer lightlord so to highlight that there is bad and good in any group.

My problem with this is, unless the group has a pre-existing in-game context with queer characters, this has a rather realistic chance to later make their trip (?) into Ravenloft "that campaign in that place that was all misty, and where everyone was gay".

I can see where this might work in-canon, and rather easily: https://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Nidala

The fundamental question being, of course, whether telling a story centered on closeted guilt isn't simply just too big for a D&D game. (As opposed to, ugh, "get the magic crown" or "hunt the imaginary dragon", for example.) Not because queer, or generally, romantic themes were too limited, but because this boils down to stuff that you by and large have to declare to players, but that they can only barely interact with.

How about we do a Pride Month netbook?

Here's an idea for you that might be fun for you to entertain: Especially for groups returning to Ravenloft, perhaps after a first campaign against Strahd - how would it upset dynamics if Tatyana was, the next time, reincarnated as a dude?

In 5e continuity it sounds like he wouldn't even notice. He's Tatyanasexual. As far as he's concerned she could be a non-binary caliban.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I've started to work on the netbook!
You're welcome to join in!
Works can be submitted UNTIL MAY 15



viewtopic.php?t=12412

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Fan Content
I have to thank Rock here.
- Camille Charleston
- Griffin
- The Red Haunt
- Most Chibiloft characters, I think
- The One & The Other
And the list goes on.

First off, thanks for the compliment.
Some small corrections, though.

1st-3rd e: From context, Ivana's mother Camille may have been bisexual. Ivana specifically turned Nostalia Romaine into the first Ermordenung so she could kill her with a poison kiss. Implying Nostalia was the sort of person Camille might be interested in kissing.

Fanwork:
- It's Camille Churnstone.
- Chibiloft: Wick and Aubert are homosexual men, who are in a committed relationship. Slice is an aromantic bisexual. Julio Huevo is asexual. The rest are pretty much heterosexual.
- Some other ace characters of mine are: Arcael, Evanar, Mu and Richelle de Mauvais

Other characters (not mine) include:
- Youen Quaid
- Brody Moore
Both gay men, created by Ian Fordham.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Fan Content
I have to thank Rock here.
- Camille Charleston
- Griffin
- The Red Haunt
- Most Chibiloft characters, I think
- The One & The Other
And the list goes on.

First off, thanks for the compliment.
Some small corrections, though.

1st-3rd e: From context, Ivana's mother Camille may have been bisexual. Ivana specifically turned Nostalia Romaine into the first Ermordenung so she could kill her with a poison kiss. Implying Nostalia was the sort of person Camille might be interested in kissing.

Fanwork:
- It's Camille Churnstone.
- Chibiloft: Wick and Aubert are homosexual men, who are in a committed relationship. Slice is an aromantic bisexual. Julio Huevo is asexual. The rest are pretty much heterosexual.
- Some other ace characters of mine are: Arcael, Evanar, Mu and Richelle de Mauvais

Other characters (not mine) include:
- Youen Quaid
- Brody Moore
Both gay men, created by Ian Fordham.

- I'd like to blame autocorrect for the Churnstone/Charleston accident, but I honestly don't remember.
- About Chibiloft: Isn't this, like, the majority of your main cast?
- Ohh, I forgot about Richelle. Richelle is the best.

[Le Noir Faineant]

I usually have enough characters in a domain and enough things for players to do that the risk is not so substantially. Yet another reason for making everything bigger.

That's the art, of course - and the time you have to game. My usual rhythm, these days, tends to be something like "four sessions/twelve-to-sixteen hours for an adventure". Perhaps a little bit short for a topic so complex. Assuming that a bigger variety of NPCs only appear, say, in the first two sessions, that'd be too hot for me. -- But that's, of course, "just like, uh, my opinion, man". More power to you if you can get it done in a more story-efficient way.

In 5e continuity it sounds like he wouldn't even notice. He's Tatyanasexual. As far as he's concerned she could be a non-binary caliban.

This is also where I would take it. Maybe even go full Karla with the story, and tie Tatyana's spirit to a talisman. That way, it's not an NPC story any more, but something the PCs might be able to deal with directly. Depending on who holds the talisman, Tatyana might possess different party members, maybe, perhaps to varying degrees.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah, but Metus is, like, a pedophile. Yeeks. Those aren't welcome around here.

Hey, you never said good representation. But yeah, I can see being loathe to include that one without at least aging Erasmus up a bit from 14.