http://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=Category_talk%3AChemical_CreationCategory talk:Chemical Creation - Revision history2026-09-15T18:44:34ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.43.0http://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=27584&oldid=prevCure at 17:49, 8 March 20102010-03-08T17:49:11Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we Aput a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we Aput a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::They are <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the </del>too. But if you expect to see [[Alchemical Child] or, I suppose for that matter , Philosoher's Stone, under chemistry you will be disappointed. The reverse would be true of atomic weights. </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>::They are <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">there </ins>too. But if you expect to see [[Alchemical Child] or, I suppose for that matter, Philosoher's Stone, under chemistry you will be disappointed. The reverse would be true of atomic weights. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John's response of "play Pathfinder" basically takes the same stance that I said. (Pathfinder does away with that troublsome restriction.) Just keep in mind, we can't always go running to John for answers. As he said, "Ask Azalin" is over. And he's not the only author on the 3e line, so even his answers are "Potential Canon" at best. You can keep the Chemistry category if you like, as long as Alchemy stays too. Just put a note in the Category page of why it exists. -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 15:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John's response of "play Pathfinder" basically takes the same stance that I said. (Pathfinder does away with that troublsome restriction.) Just keep in mind, we can't always go running to John for answers. As he said, "Ask Azalin" is over. And he's not the only author on the 3e line, so even his answers are "Potential Canon" at best. You can keep the Chemistry category if you like, as long as Alchemy stays too. Just put a note in the Category page of why it exists. -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 15:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">There was never a question of deleting Alchemy. But in support of "lifting" the restriction, we could cite Pathfinder, since we don't have to be entirely wed to 3.5 ed and 3.5 ed in this case clearly contradicts the intentions of Ravenloft 3.0 ed prestige class designs.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 17:49, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=27524&oldid=prevGonzoron at 15:47, 8 March 20102010-03-08T15:47:16Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>OK, I posted the matter in the forum on the hope that John weighs in.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>OK, I posted the matter in the forum on the hope that John weighs in.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">John's response of "play Pathfinder" basically takes the same stance that I said. (Pathfinder does away with that troublsome restriction.) Just keep in mind, we can't always go running to John for answers. As he said, "Ask Azalin" is over. And he's not the only author on the 3e line, so even his answers are "Potential Canon" at best. You can keep the Chemistry category if you like, as long as Alchemy stays too. Just put a note in the Category page of why it exists. -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 15:47, 8 March 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Gonzoronhttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25333&oldid=prevCure at 05:01, 25 February 20102010-02-25T05:01:45Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 23:01, 24 February 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we Aput a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we Aput a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">::They are the too. But if you expect to see [[Alchemical Child] or, I suppose for that matter , Philosoher's Stone, under chemistry you will be disappointed. The reverse would be true of atomic weights. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25332&oldid=prevCure at 04:57, 25 February 20102010-02-25T04:57:54Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Looking over the SRD again, their is a slight bit of wiggle room. You can take Craft (Alchemy) without prerequisite, but to actually use it to make anything you need to be a spellcaster: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." That is of course no help to Lamordian industry, but would get you legal, non-spellcasting Black Powder Avengers and Pistoleers, for a handful of skill points or two handfuls of cross-classed skill points, who couldn't of course actually make gunpowder, and so would gain no benefit from class bonuses for doing so.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Looking over the SRD again, their is a slight bit of wiggle room. You can take Craft (Alchemy) without prerequisite, but to actually use it to make anything you need to be a spellcaster: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." That is of course no help <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">at all </ins>to Lamordian industry, but would get you legal, non-spellcasting Black Powder Avengers and Pistoleers, for a handful of skill points or two handfuls of cross-classed skill points, who couldn't of course actually make gunpowder, and so would gain no benefit from class bonuses for doing so.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>OK, I posted the matter in the forum on the hope that John weighs in.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">54</del>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>OK, I posted the matter in the forum on the hope that John weighs in.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">57</ins>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25331&oldid=prevCure at 04:54, 25 February 20102010-02-25T04:54:59Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Looking over the SRD again, their is a slight bit of wiggle room. You can take Craft (Alchemy) without prerequisite, but to actually use it to make anything you need to be a spellcaster: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." That is of course no help to Lamordian industry, but would get you legal, non-spellcasting Black Powder Avengers and Pistoleers, for a handful of skill points or two handfuls of cross-classed skill points, who couldn't of course actually make gunpowder, and so would gain no benefit from class bonuses for doing so.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Looking over the SRD again, their is a slight bit of wiggle room. You can take Craft (Alchemy) without prerequisite, but to actually use it to make anything you need to be a spellcaster: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." That is of course no help to Lamordian industry, but would get you legal, non-spellcasting Black Powder Avengers and Pistoleers, for a handful of skill points or two handfuls of cross-classed skill points, who couldn't of course actually make gunpowder, and so would gain no benefit from class bonuses for doing so.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">OK, I posted the matter in the forum on the hope that John weighs in.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:54, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25330&oldid=prevCure at 04:37, 25 February 20102010-02-25T04:37:45Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:37, 24 February 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:27, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Looking over the SRD again, their is a slight bit of wiggle room. You can take Craft (Alchemy) without prerequisite, but to actually use it to make anything you need to be a spellcaster: "To make an item using Craft (alchemy), you must have alchemical equipment and be a spellcaster." That is of course no help to Lamordian industry, but would get you legal, non-spellcasting Black Powder Avengers and Pistoleers, for a handful of skill points or two handfuls of cross-classed skill points, who couldn't of course actually make gunpowder, and so would gain no benefit from class bonuses for doing so.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:37, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25329&oldid=prevCure at 04:27, 25 February 20102010-02-25T04:27:04Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:27, 24 February 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l7">Line 7:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Oh, I would dearly love to imagine that that prerequisite doesn't exist. But if my possibly tenuous grasp on the timing and authorship is correct, all the prestige classes that it messes up where written in 3.0 and our 3.5 RLPH wasn't written by the old guard that might have recognised the problem for their old material (but instead by a newguard who were busy giving us new material about power checks for every class for things every class does naturally). I would be more than happy to accept a statement from Mangrum or any of the others on the matter as official errata and make the thing go away.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">26</del>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Oh, I would dearly love to imagine that that prerequisite doesn't exist. But if my possibly tenuous grasp on the timing and authorship is correct, all the prestige classes that it messes up where written in 3.0 and our 3.5 RLPH wasn't written by the old guard that might have recognised the problem for their old material (but instead by a newguard who were busy giving us new material about power checks for every class for things every class does naturally). I would be more than happy to accept a statement from Mangrum or any of the others on the matter as official errata and make the thing go away.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">27</ins>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the absence of that statement however, Lamordia, our leading gun producer, cannot produce gunpowder, which is a stuff of magic rather than a stuff of science. But it is worse than that. Everything that we, today, call chemistry, falls within alchemy and consequently either doesn't exist in Lamordia or exists in Lamordia as blatant proof that Lamordia's scientific prowess is a hypercritical fraud since it is literally based upon spellcasters whose magic it denies. As pleasing as this thought might be to me, as I think that the second possibility is in fact the case regardless, I cannot stomach what the prerequisite does to the prestige classes: Black Powder Avenger and Pistoleer must now all be spellcasters as they have Alchemy as a prerequisite; and Detective loses Chemistry (Ex) as it is based on Alchemy. Alchemical Philosopher is essentially unchanged as it required Brew Potion in anycase.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the absence of that statement however, Lamordia, our leading gun producer, cannot produce gunpowder, which is a stuff of magic rather than a stuff of science. But it is worse than that. Everything that we, today, call chemistry, falls within alchemy and consequently either doesn't exist in Lamordia or exists in Lamordia as blatant proof that Lamordia's scientific prowess is a hypercritical fraud since it is literally based upon spellcasters whose magic it denies. As pleasing as this thought might be to me, as I think that the second possibility is in fact the case regardless, I cannot stomach what the prerequisite does to the prestige classes: Black Powder Avenger and Pistoleer must now all be spellcasters as they have Alchemy as a prerequisite; and Detective loses Chemistry (Ex) as it is based on Alchemy. Alchemical Philosopher is essentially unchanged as it required Brew Potion in anycase.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">26</del>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Since we can see a difference between alchemy and chemistry and since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic science (which is built over and against obscurantist superstition) dropped into the Demiplane of Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft (chemistry). It will let you successfully play with stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]], make gunpowder, and basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise the Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">27</ins>, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> as Lamoridans wish to see everything. That is patently absurd.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25328&oldid=prevCure at 04:26, 25 February 20102010-02-25T04:26:43Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 22:26, 24 February 2010</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l7">Line 7:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Oh, I would dearly love to imagine that that prerequisite doesn't exist. But if my possibly tenuous grasp on the timing and authorship is correct, all the prestige classes that it messes up where written in 3.0 and our 3.5 RLPH wasn't written by the old guard that might have recognised the problem <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and fixed it </del>(but instead by <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the </del>newguard who were <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">busying themselves with offering each </del>class <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a power check </del>for <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">breathing</del>). <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And </del>I would be more than happy to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">take </del>a statement from Mangrum or any of the others on the matter as official errata and make the thing go away.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Oh, I would dearly love to imagine that that prerequisite doesn't exist. But if my possibly tenuous grasp on the timing and authorship is correct, all the prestige classes that it messes up where written in 3.0 and our 3.5 RLPH wasn't written by the old guard that might have recognised the problem <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">for their old material </ins>(but instead by <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a </ins>newguard who were <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">busy giving us new material about power checks for every </ins>class for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">things every class does naturally</ins>). I would be more than happy to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">accept </ins>a statement from Mangrum or any of the others on the matter as official errata and make the thing go away.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[User:Cure|Cure]] 04:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">As for </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">real-world alchemists and my to cents</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">there were no spellcasters hurling fireballs about on demand</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">so they would have had little reason to find </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"spell-caster" inspiring. Ravenloft presupposes </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">quite different, even if low magic, history with the probable exception </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lamordia</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Magic </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not only believed and feared</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it is real</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">so an alchemey tied to it is far more tenable. Now</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the introduction of </del>Lamordia <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">into the mix invites a very modern idea and </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">very premodern idea of what </del>it is to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">be mixing stuff up in beakers. All other things being equal</del>, the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lamordian, with his guns, </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">doing chemistry and most everyone else, save for </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">gunwielders</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is doing alchemey, just as </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lamordian </del>does <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">astronomy, while most of </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">rest do astrology</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">We cover </del>in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the space of </del>a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">few score miles at most, a time frame that blithly includes the birth </del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">development of modern </del>science <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">from its manifesto proclaimed by Galileo </del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Descartes to </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">beginning </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">its </del>(<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">seemingly</del>) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ultimate triumph </del>with <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the emergence of technology. Lamordians are going to see obscurantist superstition everywhere</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">certainly in alchemey</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">so tying it to spellcasting is just giving them what they want </del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">there is no more appealing place to situate </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">difference</del>.[[User:Cure|Cure]] <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">23</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">55</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">24 </del>February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">In </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">absence of that statement however, Lamordia, our leading gun producer</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cannot produce gunpowder</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">which is </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">stuff of magic rather than </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">stuff </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">science</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">But it </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">worse than that. Everything that we</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">today</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">call chemistry</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">falls within alchemy and consequently either doesn't exist in Lamordia or exists in Lamordia as blatant proof that </ins>Lamordia<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'s scientific prowess is </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">hypercritical fraud since </ins>it is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">literally based upon spellcasters whose magic it denies. As pleasing as this thought might be </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">me</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">as I think that </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">second possibility </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">in fact </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">case regardless</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I cannot stomach what </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">prerequisite </ins>does <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">prestige classes: Black Powder Avenger and Pistoleer must now all be spellcasters as they have Alchemy as a prerequisite; and Detective loses Chemistry (Ex) as it is based on Alchemy</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Alchemical Philosopher is essentially unchanged as it required Brew Potion </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">anycase.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Since we can see </ins>a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">difference between alchemy and chemistry </ins>and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">since Lamordia is essentially our positivistic </ins>science <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(which is built over </ins>and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">against obscurantist superstition) dropped into </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Demiplane </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Dread, a viable, home-brew solution is to add Craft </ins>(<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">chemistry</ins>)<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. It will let you successfully play </ins>with <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">stuff in beakers, make [[Blistercap Poison]]</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">make gunpowder</ins>, and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">basically have a near modern world without spellcasters. Otherwise </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Lamordians aren't just wrong. They are dead wrong</ins>.[[User:Cure|Cure]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">04</ins>:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">26</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">25 </ins>February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> as Lamoridans wish to see everything. That is patently absurd.</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25327&oldid=prevCure at 23:55, 24 February 20102010-02-24T23:55:01Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:55, 24 February 2010</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Some brilliant designer in upgrading from 3ed to 3.5ed decided that only spellcasters can be alchemists. Not necessarily a problem in Greyhawk, but we have gunpowder in Ravenloft and suddenly one had to be a spellcaster to make gunpowder. And that is an evident problem in terms of flavour and rules for gunslinger prestige classes that could make gunpowder proficiently but now needed to have a spellcasting background to continue to do so. Moreoever it served to point out a general problem. How many Lamordian chemists consider themselves alchemists and are spellcasters? I would think approximately none. Given the modernity of some of Ravenloft's domains, chemistry in its own right needs to be recognised. Where one draws the line in terms of what can be crafted between the two of them is of course the question. My thought is if it can be done with chemistry in the real world, preferably at the appropriate period in history, and at comparable cost in terms of materials, equipment, gold and time, then it is chemistry and alchemy, if not it is just alchemy.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 19:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Some brilliant designer in upgrading from 3ed to 3.5ed decided that only spellcasters can be alchemists. Not necessarily a problem in Greyhawk, but we have gunpowder in Ravenloft and suddenly one had to be a spellcaster to make gunpowder. And that is an evident problem in terms of flavour and rules for gunslinger prestige classes that could make gunpowder proficiently but now needed to have a spellcasting background to continue to do so. Moreoever it served to point out a general problem. How many Lamordian chemists consider themselves alchemists and are spellcasters? I would think approximately none. Given the modernity of some of Ravenloft's domains, chemistry in its own right needs to be recognised. Where one draws the line in terms of what can be crafted between the two of them is of course the question. My thought is if it can be done with chemistry in the real world, preferably at the appropriate period in history, and at comparable cost in terms of materials, equipment, gold and time, then it is chemistry and alchemy, if not it is just alchemy.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 19:51, 22 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">put </del>a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Aput </ins>a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Oh, I would dearly love to imagine that that prerequisite doesn't exist. But if my possibly tenuous grasp on the timing and authorship is correct, all the prestige classes that it messes up where written in 3.0 and our 3.5 RLPH wasn't written by the old guard that might have recognised the problem and fixed it (but instead by the newguard who were busying themselves with offering each class a power check for breathing). And I would be more than happy to take a statement from Mangrum or any of the others on the matter as official errata and make the thing go away.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">As for the real-world alchemists and my to cents, there were no spellcasters hurling fireballs about on demand, so they would have had little reason to find a "spell-caster" inspiring. Ravenloft presupposes a quite different, even if low magic, history with the probable exception of Lamordia. Magic is not only believed and feared, it is real, so an alchemey tied to it is far more tenable. Now, the introduction of Lamordia into the mix invites a very modern idea and a very premodern idea of what it is to be mixing stuff up in beakers. All other things being equal, the Lamordian, with his guns, is doing chemistry and most everyone else, save for the gunwielders, is doing alchemey, just as the Lamordian does astronomy, while most of the rest do astrology. We cover in the space of a few score miles at most, a time frame that blithly includes the birth and development of modern science from its manifesto proclaimed by Galileo and Descartes to the beginning of its (seemingly) ultimate triumph with the emergence of technology. Lamordians are going to see obscurantist superstition everywhere, certainly in alchemey, so tying it to spellcasting is just giving them what they want and there is no more appealing place to situate the difference.[[User:Cure|Cure]] 23:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Curehttp://fraternityofshadows.com/w/index.php?title=Category_talk:Chemical_Creation&diff=25326&oldid=prevGonzoron at 18:11, 24 February 20102010-02-24T18:11:46Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we put a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I understand that. The problem is, not everyone is going to use the same solution. I'd rather we put a note in the Alchemy section about the discrepancy and let people solve it however they wish. If I were looking for alchemical stuff, I'd expect to see these things there. [[User:DeepShadow|DeepShadow]] 17:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Agreed. I don't think real world alchemists saw themselves as spellcasters either. A simpler solution would be to just declare that in Ravenloft, the no-alchemy-for-non-spellcasters rule is lifted. (In fact, I would only be mildly surprised if such as statement was buried somewhere in the RLPH.) -- [[User:Gonzoron|Gonzoron]] 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Gonzoron